Female Gloves for Males

[john374]

Does anyone remember this mod? It simply made it so that males could wear female gloves. Right now, it would help the dashing rogue male outfit be more complete, although I can't get the pants to work for the male either, I don't know what that issue could be, or whether this mod would even work in VX

[MrOllyK]

Things in the scripts would have likely changed a lot since that mod, although I never used or seen it.  Maybe it adds several male gloves or just allows males to use all existing gloves?  In any case, if the mod contains a script it would likely be incompatible with VX as it is now and should be converted.  I might be able to do it if you have it.

[x17]

Havent tried myself, but I think in DcDress.bs file , you can add next line :

.Enable :EnableFemale || :EnableMale;

This should work - but the way how gloves fit, that would need to be made universally for both and tested, otherwise there would very probably be clipping with male model. Not to mention the potential weighting... so I definitely think the resolution isnt so simple, and would be the best to re-port the asset directly for male. HOWEVER ... one could use scripts like , below in same file : 

DressCmd . {
            .Show I32(-1);
            .Target :P + "..."

LIke here, examples : 

So, that way, one could potentially hide the hands and / or lower arms, and assuming the weights are ok, no clipping would be visible.

[MrOllyK]

2 hours ago, x17 said:

Havent tried myself, but I think in DcDress.bs file , you can add next line :

.Enable :EnableFemale || :EnableMale;

This should work - but the way how gloves fit, that would need to be made universally for both and tested, otherwise there would very probably be clipping with male model. Not to mention the potential weighting... so I definitely think the resolution isnt so simple, and would be the best to re-port the asset directly for male. HOWEVER ... one could use scripts like , below in same file : 

DressCmd . {
            .Show I32(-1);
            .Target :P + "..."

 

Any editing of DcDress/DcDress_Orig or any protected script files would have to be done through an Lua addon, which is fine, or uncheck "System Files Protected" in Options Manager, which is dangerous and could allow scripts in older/wonky/contents unknown addons to run and either crash or destroy the game.  There is a way of getting around this protection system by retaining the edited file date as it was, but you'd have to do it for your own game and edit the file in VX-Mod folder.

[x17]

1 hour ago, MrOllyK said:

Any editing of DcDress/DcDress_Orig or any protected script files would have to be done through an Lua addon, which is fine, or uncheck "System Files Protected" in Options Manager, which is dangerous and could allow scripts in older/wonky/contents unknown addons to run and either crash or destroy the game.  There is a way of getting around this protection system by retaining the edited file date as it was, but you'd have to do it for your own game and edit the file in VX-Mod folder.

TBH, this is only for older files and those more "invasive" ones - I have been using game with unticked "system files protected" for months, and basically it havent occured anything game breaking at all. Actually ... the system files protected hinders any serious mod effort and never was sure why it was put there - not everyone knows lua, nor all files have their lua versions. So, for any modding, it would need to be turned off, if modder doesnt know lua. Not only that ... but it would prevent normal work of mod for any basic user that doesnt mod, but has it turned on. So, with system files protected, the modders were forced to use lua files, which is nonsensical and obstructive.

Also, unsure which exactly this outfit is - but to prevent the risk, it could very well be ported as new asset with dynamic ID and simply changed in the scripts directly as separate addon, without the need to modify DcDress, if its one of default originals.

Addition to clarify : Yes, Im also aware its very easy to make lua files from what we currently have - but this was half-assed job by Avarteas. All script files should have been converted long ago fully. Now imagine the modder that only begins modding this game and asking himself or herself - why is my mod not working ? And they dont know anything about transition to lua files. It seems to me like all was implemented lazily, and even maybe with forced intention. It just added a layer of confusion, not really "protection". And there was a claim that "99 % of all addons works now" - so that would mean that rest of 1 % are the potentially trouble making addons that could cause conflict. So it would have been much more sense to put those 1 % on list that doesnt work and so people could remove and avoid them as those were obsolete or non-functional addons. Either that, or he should have finished the job properly and prepare all scripts fully.

[MrOllyK]

1 hour ago, x17 said:

Yes, Im also aware its very easy to make lua files from what we currently have - but this was half-assed job by Avarteas. All script files should have been converted long ago fully. Now imagine the modder that only begins modding this game and asking himself or herself - why is my mod not working ? And they dont know anything about transition to lua files. It seems to me like all was implemented lazily, and even maybe with forced intention. It just added a layer of confusion, not really "protection". And there was a claim that "99 % of all addons works now" - so that would mean that rest of 1 % are the potentially trouble making addons that could cause conflict. So it would have been much more sense to put those 1 % on list that doesnt work and so people could remove and avoid them as those were obsolete or non-functional addons. Either that, or he should have finished the job properly and prepare all scripts fully.

Basically the protection system was designed to protect script files that are changed on launch by the options set in Options Manager.  If someone changes a script for the menu and the one in VX-Mod folder is ignored, best case scenario is some options in Options Manager are overridden and the game won't work as expected, neither will Options Manager.  Worst case is that the options are applied to the modified file and it no longer works at all and crashes the game.

It's perfectly okay to mod your own game any way you like providing you know what you're doing, but for addons uploaded for the community the best way is to ensure it works without interfering with protection.  There was a few days ago an external utility to change a few audio files in the game while the game wasn't running, but it killed the protection system to make it work.  One user of that tool had to do a complete reinstall as some files were destroyed, likely because some of his addons contained old scripts that the protection system while active didn't allow to run, but since using the tool protection was off and kaboom happened.

[x17]

5 minutes ago, MrOllyK said:

Basically the protection system was designed to protect script files that are changed on launch by the options set in Options Manager.  If someone changes a script for the menu and the one in VX-Mod folder is ignored, best case scenario is some options in Options Manager are overridden and the game won't work as expected, neither will Options Manager.  Worst case is that the options are applied to the modified file and it no longer works at all and crashes the game.

It's perfectly okay to mod your own game any way you like providing you know what you're doing, but for addons uploaded for the community the best way is to ensure it works without interfering with protection.  There was a few days ago an external utility to change a few audio files in the game while the game wasn't running, but it killed the protection system to make it work.  One user of that tool had to do a complete reinstall as some files were destroyed, likely because some of his addons contained old scripts that the protection system while active didn't allow to run, but since using the tool protection was off and kaboom happened.

From what I understood and heard from others, the utility was exe directly ? In such case, this was a very different situation than just ordinary editing of existing scripts. 

Overall , this was somewhat similar case with some of the very old scripts that touched primarily particle effects or some other features in the game. But, as said - all of this was absolutely lazy assed from the side of Avarteas. Partial job done, and such things pretty much have potential to kill off modding enthusiasm with modding newcomers. Information is easily lost, and not just with sites that do not exist anymore, but also with messy threads.

Its easy for us who have changed and modified the game - but there is a need for vision for future of this game and practical aspect for new modders. Ill easily convert my files to lua, but this is not point about it ... everything was kept in more murky waters regarding modding - and if Ill be honest with you, Im thinking there was truly an ego aspect involved into this. Into something that should never be involved, as modding should be open to everyone.

To clarify, the "protection" wasnt the only thing lazy assed. Many things never had logic to be implemented and the whole default "optimization" of assets was just a degradation of quality, which was already poor and obsolete. Hair pack was optional, but purely pointless bloat of everything. Many categories were made just if they had even one single asset that someone modded in. And every single one of those categories require their ParamID - so we have IDs used on pointless categories that could have all been put in "Misc" or similar joint category in the ending. True ideas were implemented from Raistin Kane - and its visible in code.

Ill see to change whatever I can to better... Sorry about little rant, but it frustrates me to see the state of the game which could have been better by now, and lots of time has been wasted on pointless things.

[MrOllyK]

53 minutes ago, x17 said:

From what I understood and heard from others, the utility was exe directly ? In such case, this was a very different situation than just ordinary editing of existing scripts. 

It was, but it still had a bad effect unknown by the author when he wrote it.  He's since removed it and is now going about it a different way.

I didn't like the necessity of Lua addons either but going how everything was coming together I could see why it was needed.  In any case it allows one simple addon to modify many different versions of the game where the script also differs.  I hate it but it has its benefits.

53 minutes ago, x17 said:

Many things never had logic to be implemented and the whole default "optimization" of assets was just a degradation of quality, which was already poor and obsolete. Hair pack was optional, but purely pointless bloat of everything. Many categories were made just if they had even one single asset that someone modded in. And every single one of those categories require their ParamID - so we have IDs used on pointless categories that could have all been put in "Misc" or similar joint category in the ending. True ideas were implemented from Raistin Kane - and its visible in code.

Definitely.  If anything maybe the game should have been stripped of everything and had all default items converted to addons, that way it's not so bloated and users could pick what they want in it.  This is why at VX0.80 when body meshes were able to be swapped in the Customizer menu rather than have to use an old trick in the scripts and body mesh files to have more than one male or something like that, I stopped upgrading my VX and just started stripping everything I didn't need.  Still got more to do though, but now it fits on a 900k RAM disk using only about 650k including AM and Save folders.  It just loads so much faster with hugely smaller and also combined script files.

The later versions of VX just got more bloated with more items added as default which reduced loading speed a lot.  We then replaced all the slow loading jp2's with png's picking up a lot of speed, but there was still lots of stuff added that just slowed it down again.  Some script files are optimised on launch and kept in Cache (permanent cache files option) and it helps a bit, but being able to choose what's in your game by default using addons would have been better.

The reason for extra ParamID's and some things seemingly in different categories comes from the commercial version.  You "buy" additional items which have their own cat and ParamID etc.  It's why models and hairpack etc. are selectable in Options Manager because the commercial game had scripts to invoke them when you "paid" for them.

[x17]

5 minutes ago, MrOllyK said:

It was, but it still had a bad effect unknown by the author when he wrote it.  He's since removed it and is now going about it a different way.

I didn't like the necessity of Lua addons either but going how everything was coming together I could see why it was needed.  In any case it allows one simple addon to modify many different versions of the game where the script also differs.  I hate it but it has its benefits.

Definitely.  If anything maybe the game should have been stripped of everything and had all default items converted to addons, that way it's not so bloated and users could pick what they want in it.  This is why at VX0.80 when body meshes were able to be swapped in the Customizer menu rather than have to use an old trick in the scripts and body mesh files to have more than one male or something like that, I stopped upgrading my VX and just started stripping everything I didn't need.  Still got more to do though, but now it fits on a 900k RAM disk using only about 650k including AM and Save folders.  It just loads so much faster with hugely smaller and also combined script files.

The later versions of VX just got more bloated with more items added as default which reduced loading speed a lot.  We then replaced all the slow loading jp2's with png's picking up a lot of speed, but there was still lots of stuff added that just slowed it down again.  Some script files are optimised on launch and kept in Cache (permanent cache files option) and it helps a bit, but being able to choose what's in your game by default using addons would have been better.

I think there could have even been upgrading, instead of downgrading, of default assets ... ofc, those which would still have sense to have. Subdividing them, retexturing, basically overhauling them fully, and porting them in same place with same scripts (except the main bs one, ofc) - in such way, the default asset would have sense for more full utilization. Otherwise, stripping down the default assets from game could have definitely been a good idea ...

Similar "treatment" of upgrading also for default rooms.

Instead, they went opposite direction ... basically I dont even use almost anything of default assets - it just sits there, bloating the game pointlessly.

For beginning, Im thinking about reshuffling maybe some stuff from various categories into one, and using one category for some special purposes. But unsure, will need to see with everyone else, some categories are completely pointless and almost nothing was used there. Custom heads also ... pointless. It also clutters the customizer drastically. 

[MrOllyK]

15 hours ago, x17 said:

Instead, they went opposite direction ... basically I dont even use almost anything of default assets - it just sits there, bloating the game pointlessly.

They could have removed everything default and made them addons, especially now that it's dynamic ID capable.  It's not only a lot of work but it would likely screw up everyone's dress saves since day dot.  The way the game was built commercially is mainly at fault and many things just worked out the way they did by having to work around all that.  The game became a bit of a mess because of it but it's not stopping anyone redoing their own.  Because of all this I'm not sure if they're using any different methods for VX2 they're still working on.  Some slight differences in script notation would make some of my addons useless and I'd have to port them specially.

[john374]

I feel you guys on all points. I'm overall fairly happy with VX but lack of "quality of life" is ever present considering how many years 7.5 had support and community. i never cared about the "female gloves for males" mod until now, because there is a dearth of male outfits, and i'm likely to be fine without it, because there is so much missing in VX. 

[thrace]

On 8/5/2021 at 11:33 AM, x17 said:

I think there could have even been upgrading, instead of downgrading, of default assets ... ofc, those which would still have sense to have. Subdividing them, retexturing, basically overhauling them fully, and porting them in same place with same scripts (except the main bs one, ofc) - in such way, the default asset would have sense for more full utilization. Otherwise, stripping down the default assets from game could have definitely been a good idea ...

Similar "treatment" of upgrading also for default rooms.

Instead, they went opposite direction ... basically I dont even use almost anything of default assets - it just sits there, bloating the game pointlessly.

For beginning, Im thinking about reshuffling maybe some stuff from various categories into one, and using one category for some special purposes. But unsure, will need to see with everyone else, some categories are completely pointless and almost nothing was used there. Custom heads also ... pointless. It also clutters the customizer drastically. 

I don't use any of the default assets, they're low res crap and they shouldn't be included - but I guess the TK17 team members who refuse to upgrade their computer and refuse to use hooks find them useful.

If one was to change all of the image files for default assets into 16*16 pixel pngs, would that speed up loading / free up memory etc?

[x17]

2 hours ago, thrace said:

I don't use any of the default assets, they're low res crap and they shouldn't be included - but I guess the TK17 team members who refuse to upgrade their computer and refuse to use hooks find them useful.

If one was to change all of the image files for default assets into 16*16 pixel pngs, would that speed up loading / free up memory etc?

Nah, the icons and images anyways get auto-resized when needed, and there wouldnt anyways be such gain from just some images in 256x256 sizes ... I mean, game can load relatively complex scenes, models and clothing for its age, and I think UI is really having a minimal impact here - altough when formats changed from JP2 to PNG and DDS for much of stuff, this speeded up things. Avarteas was painstakingly changing txf file settings of vast majority of icons in customizer - to gain very little to nothing on performance, but this created any problems to anyone (including me) who wanted to modify icons, so needed to modify txf files also back. IMO, its pointless if its few seconds of load ... one wouldnt even notice it.

[thrace]

4 hours ago, x17 said:

Nah, the icons and images anyways get auto-resized when needed, and there wouldnt anyways be such gain from just some images in 256x256 sizes ... I mean, game can load relatively complex scenes, models and clothing for its age, and I think UI is really having a minimal impact here - altough when formats changed from JP2 to PNG and DDS for much of stuff, this speeded up things. Avarteas was painstakingly changing txf file settings of vast majority of icons in customizer - to gain very little to nothing on performance, but this created any problems to anyone (including me) who wanted to modify icons, so needed to modify txf files also back. IMO, its pointless if its few seconds of load ... one wouldnt even notice it.

I wasn't referring to icons - I meant the diffuse images used for clothing, skin, rooms and whatnot in Archives\2.158.001\images.zip. There's 400mb of gak in there that I'm pretty sure I never use.

Edit: I've actually just tested removing the entire zip. Other than a few things that I could easily troubleshoot (looks like I sometimes still use base eyelashes, nips and fingernails, for instance) it made absolutely no difference to my game given I have modded the GUI with addons and never use 1x.  

Unfortunately, it also made no difference to loading times!

[x17]

16 minutes ago, thrace said:

I wasn't referring to icons - I meant the diffuse images used for clothing, skin, rooms and whatnot in Archives\2.158.001\images.zip. There's 400mb of gak in there that I'm pretty sure I never use.

Edit: I've actually just tested removing the entire zip. Other than a few things that I could easily troubleshoot (looks like I sometimes still use base eyelashes, nips and fingernails, for instance) it made absolutely no difference to my game given I have modded the GUI with addons and never use 1x.  

Unfortunately, it also made no difference to loading times!

Yeah , this whole endeavour of Team to somehow "optimize" the default content is pointless and was more waste of time, rather than true optimization. 

These default assets will be used only by those who use vanilla visuals only and nothing else, and users which arent bothered with truly low poly shapes and completely blurred out low res textures. 

I would probably do something about this ... but I think my "upgrading" plans regarding it will not come to fruition, as Ill eventually move to much different body with completely different topology. So, I think, from my POV, Ill see maybe to customize my own version only, and if it shows some results, could share with others. 

[thrace]

18 minutes ago, x17 said:

Yeah , this whole endeavour of Team to somehow "optimize" the default content is pointless and was more waste of time, rather than true optimization. 

These default assets will be used only by those who use vanilla visuals only and nothing else, and users which arent bothered with truly low poly shapes and completely blurred out low res textures. 

I would probably do something about this ... but I think my "upgrading" plans regarding it will not come to fruition, as Ill eventually move to much different body with completely different topology. So, I think, from my POV, Ill see maybe to customize my own version only, and if it shows some results, could share with others. 

Can't say I hold out much hope for their latest attempt to remain relevant...