Location for Customization Morphs (Open Discussion)

[Smoke]

So we know about VX customization morphs and well as I predicted - its getting a 'bit' cramped. So I'm wondering if people are fine with that or if its getting 'annoying'. I know that eventually it would get cramped and we'll have to live with it but its feels 'too soon'.

Me personally, i'm a little annoyed having to do long scrolls but I did start taking note from Euphie and HDiddy and using other tabs to move certain addons and testing out the ease and results.

The point of this is to get more information, ideas and to agree to a common standards.

I moved some hat morphs, Jewelry morphs (such as the TD piercings) to the accessory tab. Obviously it cleared space in the VXMorphs tab. I also was fiddling with Hair morphs, HDiddy placed them in the Makeup tab and did the same but I also wanted to trying moving those morphs to the Body tab. The issue that I encountered is that the hair morphs does not stick in the body tab - maybe I am missing a code there but the make up and accessory tab are working fine. 

So I was thinking about moving other items to the accessory tab. Things I do believe should go there; Jewelry/piercings, hats/head pieces, glasses, mask, watches, ankle, etc. (And before someone ask, yes I know some stuff is not posted or updated because its still a WiP - hence this discussion lol)

And the debatable (if it should go in there), shoes/heels, socks, ties/neck accessories, arm accessories, nipple accessories.

[Morius]

55 minutes ago, Smoke said:

So we know about VX customization morphs and well as I predicted - its getting a 'bit' cramped. So I'm wondering if people are fine with that or if its getting 'annoying'. I know that eventually it would get cramped and we'll have to live with it but its feels 'too soon'.

Me personally, i'm a little annoyed having to do long scrolls but I did start taking note from Euphie and HDiddy and using other tabs to move certain addons and testing out the ease and results.

The point of this is to get more information, ideas and to agree to a common standards.

I moved some hat morphs, Jewelry morphs (such as the TD piercings) to the accessory tab. Obviously it cleared space in the VXMorphs tab. I also was fiddling with Hair morphs, HDiddy placed them in the Makeup tab and did the same but I also wanted to trying moving those morphs to the Body tab. The issue that I encountered is that the hair morphs does not stick in the body tab - maybe I am missing a code there but the make up and accessory tab are working fine. 

So I was thinking about moving other items to the accessory tab. Things I do believe should go there; Jewelry/piercings, hats/head pieces, glasses, mask, watches, ankle, etc. (And before someone ask, yes I know some stuff is not posted or updated because its still a WiP - hence this discussion lol)

And the debatable (if it should go in there), shoes/heels, socks, ties/neck accessories, arm accessories, nipple accessories.

Morphs tabs could have a combo box. You select the piece you want to morph on the ocmbo box and the selected clothing pops up with its sliders. I'm no moder, but I think it's feaseble althought requisres some work).

In fact, I think combo boxes can be the solution to ease a bit this problem.

[Smoke]

9 minutes ago, Morius said:

Morphs tabs could have a combo box. You select the piece you want to morph on the ocmbo box and the selected clothing pops up with its sliders. I'm no moder, but I think it's feaseble althought requisres some work).

In fact, I think combo boxes can be the solution to ease a bit this problem.

Not sure if I under the combo box concept. If you mean by; say selecting a shirt and the morphs appears on the tab and/or disappears when not selected, that is not possible. Though it would be the best solution lol

I was fiddling with the game looking for solution for that. Even was talking to avarteas back when we were are friendlier terms and he pretty much confirmed it, hardcoded and/or requiring some heavy knowledge of the game.

I think the work around, in which what avarteas tried to push was having a certain amount of sliders available and it being used for all addons (similar to how toys are) and you could not name them (again, to avoid confusion, etc). This method would of kept the amount of slider confined. But at the end, bad leadership made people look else where and found other things about the game (this customization Morphs being one of them). 

[Morius]

Yeah, I knew that the game is hardcoded and not everything can be done, but it's a pity to know that this includes combo boxes, I thought @x17 managed to create some new combo boxes, am I wrong?

Anyway, yeah, I agree with you, too much scrolling can be annoying, but I don't mind if this is what we have.

21 hours ago, Smoke said:

I moved some hat morphs, Jewelry morphs (such as the TD piercings) to the accessory tab.

I think this organization makes sense, but if just one modder do this, it may become hell.

I'm a useless twat that it's just spewing baseless opinions here, can other knowlegeable people join the discussion? It would be nice if at least all content creators agreed on where to place their morphs sliders.

[x17]

8 minutes ago, Morius said:

Yeah, I knew that the game is hardcoded and not everything can be done, but it's a pity to know that this includes combo boxes, I thought @x17 managed to create some new combo boxes, am I wrong?

Unsure exactly what you mean here - If you mean categories and its subcategories in customizer, it can be remade or added new. Basically this is just categorization of assets, nothing else. Anything can be reassigned to something else ... well assuming we dont screw up the IDs in the process. Overall design of customizer isnt bad, considering were running the archaic type of UI. Some categories could be potentially remade into something else. For example, the combo category asset, which has one single asset that utilized HS sliders ... can be remade into something else much better, instead of being on top of clothing category without much extensive usage.

Sadly, many things in this game is just ... what I said above, plainly archaic design. UI is older than two decades.

[Morius]

 

14 minutes ago, x17 said:

Unsure exactly what you mean here - If you mean categories and its subcategories in customizer, it can be remade or added new. Basically this is just categorization of assets, nothing else. Anything can be reassigned to something else ... well assuming we dont screw up the IDs in the process. Overall design of customizer isnt bad, considering were running the archaic type of UI. Some categories could be potentially remade into something else. For example, the combo category asset, which has one single asset that utilized HS sliders ... can be remade into something else much better, instead of being on top of clothing category without much extensive usage.

Sadly, many things in this game is just ... what I said above, plainly archaic design. UI is older than two decades.

Yeah, I figured that combo boxes could be repurposed, and I agree combo combo box is very useless, lol. But how about creating new ones, like you did here?  The idea is to use combo boxes to organize morphs on them, so when you select one from the combo box their respective sliders appear. Or it could be generic standard sliders, (like LBreast, RBreast, Crotch, LShoulder...) and each morph would respond to them, like what was done with the toys. Is it possible?

 

[Smoke]

15 hours ago, Morius said:

like what was done with the toys. Is it possible?

Still confused lol

To give some context:

• Toy morphs are limited to 25
• Toy morphs can not be labeled/ID'ed. Though, you can add a description, its will stick to 1 label forever and its buggy. For example: X17 creates a toy and slider one is label, door open. I make a toy and slider one is labeled chair spin. Not sure how the game picks the order (release date, alphabetical order, etc). But say it picks my toy. Meaning even if you pick X17 toy, you will see my label/ID. The only way you can see X17 label is by removing my toy. That why its better to leave it blank and let the default label show up.
• By default, toy morphs are limited to 1 model (Model #2). Meaning you cannot have multiple toys with morphs on screen. But you can change that but requires people to change the code give Model 1, 3 and/or 4. The problem, model 2 cannot use those morphs, IMO that just creates more confusion

Again, if you mean making the sliders like toys, its pretty much like I previously said, creating a system for modders to follow and obey. But limiting the morphs for certain locations to a slider number, would of been ideal but like I mentioned, they dropped the ball with leadership. And even if that option is tested/adapted, its basically gonna limit a bunch of addons. 

Ideally, it would of been nice that the clothing with morphs appears in that section. And changes to other slider when different clothes are selected. But that is just one of the limits peeking it ugly head for this game.

[Morius]

Ok, let's go visual:

These are the Toy sliders, they differ from the morphs sliders because they are located on the edit box, on pose edit, not on the customizer. The editing you do here is temporary, it's only for the scene you are creating. Like you said, it has som problems, like only one object being capable to morph in every scene and the sliders being not numbered. Didn't knew about the bug. 
Now, the desirable aspect is that if you change the toy in the combo box, the sliders govern the new one, not the previous.

These are the morphs sliders, I don't know how many there is, but I think it can be hundreds. In the screenshot I pick one of the most comprehensive, @HDiddy's XBody Lingerie 1.1.1. At the moment we have tons of morphs with their own sliders in one category. These are located at the customizer options, so their changes stick betwenn poses in the same model.

And this is @x17's KE XXI - Klub Exile eXtreme eXpansion Idea 0.9.5, showing that's possible to add new combo boxes on the customizer options.

My idea is, to make labeled sliders that are commonly used by all morphs there is (and then add some more for extra options) and a combo box to select the desired piece of clothing. The sliders would change the one selected in the combo box.
 

It could be made several combo boxes, just like it's in the dress tab, a bra combo box, a blouse combo box, a top combo box... each one with it's sliders, that way you can have several morphs going on in the same model, it become a little more organized.

 

2 hours ago, Smoke said:

Again, if you mean making the sliders like toys, its pretty much like I previously said, creating a system for modders to follow and obey. But limiting the morphs for certain locations to a slider number, would of been ideal but like I mentioned, they dropped the ball with leadership. And even if that option is tested/adapted, its basically gonna limit a bunch of addons. 

Ideally, it would of been nice that the clothing with morphs appears in that section. And changes to other slider when different clothes are selected. But that is just one of the limits peeking it ugly head for this game.

I don't know if it's possible, it requires several try and tests and the cooperation of the modders community to try to follow the right labels. But morphs are awesome, and changed the game, made it something else, but I agree it's hard work, lol. For now, your idea to place the morphs in the categorie what it is morphing is would, for a while, reduce the scrolling, until even more morphs shows up, and they will.


 

[x17]

Aha, you basically mean, "combo box" = new category.

The categories you see that I added in are just "for flavor", aside some default ones and visual bio one, there isnt exact "tangible" function within the game. The way I have added those, though, it was through fixed IDs. Now, the ID list has been somewhere on Modsgarden... and even it was a mess and incomplete / not updated. This is one of the things that was lost to time and lazyness, and it would take a proper team of people to clarify and "map out" everything, including which ID ranges are for what, and what IDs are free.

There are still plenty of free IDs in some ranges, including the range I used for new flags. The problem is in clarifying whats free and whats not. 

Now, one can implement subcategories within one category, using one ID. But overall, the current problem of customizer is maybe in opposite direction - too many categories, messy categories placement, some categories are completely pointless and have 1 or very few assets in them since their creation. The exception is puppet category, which is very very useful.

Sadly, some things about UI are just archaic as it is ... unsure if it could be fixed without extensive hacks. Few people in total in whole modding of TK17 actually hacked the game - White Rabbit without doubt, Pervokpetr with HOOKs, I assume probably Rick9 and maybe also Raistin Kane (I have seen dll references to RK's work, and its either implemented by RK himself, or was given to WR to implement). That would make at most 4 people who modded this game "in depth".

As I said on one other thread ... Im of impression that it would take less time even to build your game from scratch than trying to figure out how to circumvent some big problems within this game. Maybe Im wrong, and Im hope Im wrong regarding that ... but well see. One thing is for sure, I think there are still surprises left from this game in the bag ...

 

Would say, one of more important things would be to expand possible number of morphs in PE for certain assets - especially heads and bodies. Toys in one way could also be expanded, but shouldnt go overboard because of their bulk loading.

[HDiddy]

Ultimately speaking, you would want a dynamic menu.  Where things show up as needed.  Unfortunately I'm not sure if this is too possible without a shit ton of lua coding.  To me it makes sense to only show morphs for clothing that is equipped (both dressed and undressed).  This something I was messing around with earlier but did not dig to deep.  Currently Morphs for male clothes only shows for males and females for females.  This was a fairly easy implementation. 

Now the question is more so what "If" function, syntax, or statement would you use to say "If addon is active or equipped, then show these morphs"

[aardy]

Another solution would be collapsible menus for each item similar to what we already have in the PoseEdit menu.

No idea if that would be at all possible, but my morphing tab is now really causing a lag on my potato when scrolling through it.  I've had to get a bit selective about which morphing items I have in my game at any time.

Any solution would be much appreciated  

[Smoke]

7 hours ago, Morius said:

combo boxes on the customizer options.

Ok so by combo boxes, are you talking about the; anal skill, footjob skill, etc. As K17 said, it was for flavor. And like HDiddy, it would really depend on further fucking with lua coding.

Moving the morphs into PE menu - isn't bad. Technically that was XMorphs made but it had its flaws. And it had to be removed. And PE morphs will not stick (unless you save a pose) - Customization morphs will once you set it up. Honestly it all comes down to the creator, organization, and time. I used to just stick on the morphs on the PE - and honestly, used it in a limited way and wanted to expand use of customization tab but my knowledge was limited. Ultimately HDiddy found a desirable method and I started using that. My point, how I see customization morphs, if they change the overall look and/or style of the addon, stick it in there. PE morphs is meant to simulate wind, minor movement, lift, etc.

8 hours ago, Morius said:

I don't know if it's possible, it requires several try and tests and the cooperation of the modders community to try to follow the right labels. But morphs are awesome, and changed the game, made it something else, but I agree it's hard work, lol. For now, your idea to place the morphs in the categorie what it is morphing is would, for a while, reduce the scrolling, until even more morphs shows up, and they will.

There is already a roadmap on how to do morphs; toys, rooms, clothes, etc. Prime example is me "scolding" people not to label toy PE morphs. But ultimately its up to modder on how he/she implements it. Between Me and HDiddy, I think HDiddy does more in terms on creating morphs to fix clipping and/or fit or adaptable to a bunch of body mods. Me personally, I limit my usage to few body mods so I see no usage on spending more time. While he probably uses it hence on him going that route. Others are sticking either to default body, FBV2, dp16 curvy body. 

1 hour ago, aardy said:

Another solution would be collapsible menus for each item similar to what we already have in the PoseEdit menu.

No idea if that would be at all possible, but my morphing tab is now really causing a lag on my potato when scrolling through it.  I've had to get a bit selective about which morphing items I have in my game at any time.

Any solution would be much appreciated  

The ideal solution is having some sort of dynamic system. But that is still out of our reach. Though, I like the collapsible "spoiler" tab idea. I know what you mean by lag. But I dont think its a "permanent" issue, I've had my PC hiccup but it seems to correct itself once it fully loaded. 

[x17]

Yep - basically, ideal way is to use morphs in PE only when those morphs are intended to be animated. Example - face expressions. Yet, we are in need to expand this in PE further. Considering were limited a lot for many regions in PE, it has sense to move majority of morphs that arent supposed to be animated (shape changes) into customizer. This way, we can keep a lot of options on the table. Still, head and body morphs expansion in number for PE will need eventually to be done. Also, one will find unnecessary to implement some morphs in PE if the change can be done through usage of manipulators (translation / rotation) 

The most ideal way would be a separate menu specifically for PE morphs, collapsible menus / subsections is closest to that. Maybe we will get to more intuitive ways one day, but it will certainly require a whole UI remake and not just what were capable through surface code.

There are three "layers" of code how UI works, and fourth is surely the hardcoded one in exe.

The most ideal way would be to have certain fast combinations (press button > activate manipulator) within Pose Editor. Or, press button > open a panel or sub-menu with additional options.  

 

[HDiddy]

3 hours ago, aardy said:

Another solution would be collapsible menus for each item similar to what we already have in the PoseEdit menu.

No idea if that would be at all possible, but my morphing tab is now really causing a lag on my potato when scrolling through it.  I've had to get a bit selective about which morphing items I have in my game at any time.

Any solution would be much appreciated  

It definitely can get laggy especially if the addon icons are full size. That said one tip I took from Euphie more recently is to resize all my clothing addon icons to 32 x 32.  This helps a ton with the lag.

[Smoke]

2 hours ago, HDiddy said:

It definitely can get laggy especially if the addon icons are full size. That said one tip I took from Euphie more recently is to resize all my clothing addon icons to 32 x 32.  This helps a ton with the lag.

Hmmm will test this out. Honestly haven't had it lag and crashed. Like I said, I hiccup and then it stabilizes back to normal. Either way, on my behalf, to lower mine from 256 to 64-32.