General feedback on the current modding tools/workflows

[xxpy02]

Even though I am completely new to the forum I know TK17 for quite some time now (known as "S**Villa" back then) and just picked it up again to mess around after a decade (or more).

I found that Hook5 is a great and much welcomed improvement to the graphics and so I got pretty excited to start doing more with it, but I am more into creating unique content than downloading addons and playing with them.

Thing is, everything related to modding seems pretty outdated/ancient, very limited or plain hard to use (when it actually works). This is the reason why I started working on this body addon for the latest version of Blender.

So I just wanted to get a general feedback from the community modders, those who are actively creating and uploading content (free or paid):

• Is that the same feeling for you?
• Do you think this hinders your creativity/productivity and therefore you get uninspired to do more?
• Maybe the learning curve for beginners is too sharp so they get disapointed and move on?
• Would refreshing/updating our toolset help inspire more modders?
• Or simply adding more features to the existing addons/tools be enough?

I plan on working on the addon I mentioned above with a long term goal of it being a more general tool, that's why I ask all these questions. I want to gather feedback to see where my help would be better suited. Or in other terms: I don't want to spend time on something no one needs/wants - I'd much rather use my skills to help others achieve more. That's the reason I went for a bodies addon, because CTK seems to do a pretty good job for everything else although not being too user/beginner friendly.

It'd be great to help this community grow, so all your feedback is appreciated.

[HDiddy]

1 hour ago, xxpy02 said:

Thing is, everything related to modding seems pretty outdated/ancient, very limited or plain hard to use (when it actually works). This is the reason why I started working on this body addon for the latest version of Blender.

Nice job on the addon.  That said not sure what you specifically mean things are "outdated or ancient"  If you mean modding being done on Blender versions 2.79, etc...well cannot argue with you there but what works works.  Even The Sims 4 requires Blender 2.79 for modding.  The reason is simple, they are the most compatible with the old as teeth game and specifically CTK.  The problem is that modding TK17 requires some basic level of understanding Blender.  No tool is going to do that for you.  Tools are not going to teach you how to sculpt or modify weights.  That is all learned, and unfortunately most people prefer to request and download.

If you are specifically referring to Bodies.  Well maybe so, however one of the reasons Body Modding never caught on was incompatibility to clothes.  Sure you can create a nice body, but without any clothes, it becomes pointless.  This is why I believe the tools in that space remained sparse.  I recommend anyone who is doing bodies, to at least invest time to make some or modify clothing for your body.  I believe @Driver is a good example of putting a body out and making sure you support it with clothing.

If you want to refresh the toolset..well best to refresh it for the more popular items.  Not sure what you would add or update, but the sky is the limit.  Some of us have incorporated Blender Scripts to handle things like clothing morphs, so having a tool that does that at the click of a button would be nice.  However scripting helps a ton.

To your questions:

• Is that the same feeling for you? Not really
• Do you think this hinders your creativity/productivity and therefore you get uninspired to do more? Nope
• Maybe the learning curve for beginners is too sharp so they get disapointed and move on? I was a beginner 3 years ago.  I learned by by watching YouTube videos and actually paying attention to what seasoned modders told me to do.
• Would refreshing/updating our toolset help inspire more modders? Depends what is being refreshed
• Or simply adding more features to the existing addons/tools be enough? Depends what you are adding

Now for me...and this is just me.  My tools work pretty much 95% of the time.  I use Blender 2.79 for majority of modding, but use 2.9+ if I need to create custom clothing morphs.  I find 2.79 simple and straight forward so I keep to it. I am using the modified tk17 IO importer I believe DP16 modified.  This allows me to import morphs on meshes which the old one did not.  I don't use it for exporting. Just importing.  I think what you are doing is sound I think if it inspires just one new modder it is worth it.  I just think the community has historically been more of a use it type of community than I will make it myself.

[Smoke]

2 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

So I just wanted to get a general feedback from the community modders, those who are actively creating and uploading content (free or paid):

I tend to avoid these questions because I fell that 99% of the time, people take my 'to the point' logic thinking as a insult or they plainly deny my response because they think that I 'don't know' what I'm saying and/or its counter productive. But seeing that i've been 'modding' this game for the past 5+ years and have been with this community longer - I have seen it all and have and can showcase my 'experience'.

 

2 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

Is that the same feeling for you?

No - assuming this is you asking if the 'toolsets' is outdated/old tech. The overall 'point' that people try to do is see if they can mod something in game. Of everyone that I helped, that is their primary goal - 'can I get this to appear in game'. So be it old or new tool set, the first primary goal is to get something they made to appear in game.

2 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

Do you think this hinders your creativity/productivity and therefore you get uninspired to do more?

I think this is where I start getting people 'mad'. They think there is a 'magic bullet' for modding stuff. There is NO magic bullet. There are scripts and tools that can help you but at the end, it is up to YOU to create your work flow and up to you to learn how blender works (be it the old version or the new version). Another issue that people cannot accept is the overall limits of this game. Lets not beat around the bush here, it is extremely easy to make this game crash - and people just simply don't want to accept that reality. So 'certain' doings is just opening the door for a disaster to happen and people not wanting to accept any accountability. And unfortunately, we are currently stuck with the 32bit of the game - the 64bit is far from finish and will not support much of the improvements that VX has (example: Hook5 will not work with V11). And there are a lot of egos that don't like people, it is why you see 2 sites and different discord channels. Those people simply don't want to work with KE because they simply cannot fathom that 'someone' did something good - my point, V11 can be good but at its current pace, its not (that is if it ever going to be released)

2 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

Maybe the learning curve for beginners is too sharp so they get disapointed and move on?

Again - magic bullet. There is no magic bullet. The best solution is for people to create their work flow, something that is comfortable towards them. The process is unforgiving if you make a mistake, plain and simple - and I think that is what breaks people to 'move on'. 

2 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

Would refreshing/updating our toolset help inspire more modders?

I think the biggest hurdle is that people CANNOT use CTK correctly. CTK was the tool that literally made modding easier. Personally, it probably need a better guide. Or the current guide needs to be cleaned up so people can understand it. 

Currently, I don't see CTK needing a update as it is functioning what it was made to do (make stuff for this game). There is a user out there that believes that CTK does not work and was/is making a 'app' to make CTK work 'easier'. IMO dude is creating additional complicated steps on a problem that does not exist.

So yea. More tutorials - something is bound to stick.

3 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

Or simply adding more features to the existing addons/tools be enough?

Not sure what you mean. But if you can create a tool that will perfectly apply/create weights on addons. Well - I would call that revolutionary.

[hfg2]

If you go and publish on github I could submit bugs/patches/improvements. At least in theory.

Your project with the modding tools is highly appreciated by me, is nice to see people that starts implementing Nodes as objects/classes and working on high versions of Blender as well. Also are good for study.

You are very dedicated to the stock bodies which I consider inferior bodies, but if your project can export custom bodies (like exporting materials, textures and the rest of nodes like CollaTkane does, not constrained in the old local_XXX numbers) then I will be interested in including this in my bodies exporter.

But I'm kinda done at this point with the game as it is, I personally would like to switch to something else because of the issues I've encountered (limitations in the engine and frequent crashes due to high textures sizes I'm using). I'm not saying that I've abandoned the game for good, but for now I would like to focus on alternatives, because a lot of the tools I've built over time I think can be adapted and reused for other engines with little effort and is a pity not to do so.

[Driver]

What I like about your addon is, how simple it is. As far as just editing mesh of game items concerns, things are quite easy. Just to import an item/move vertices/export it. Blender is a very much difficult application to use for a beginner, but if you concentrate on only this, you'll need just an hour to learn.

I like to consider things as simple as I can, and the first step should be as simple as it can be. If you want a body shape, import body and reshape it, export and test it. You want something to put on, import a cloth from your game and reshape it, export and you can enjoy it.

This is what our game has long missed.

[xxpy02]

The past few days I've been working like crazy and I didn't had time to reply, but I appreciate all your feedback on this thread. Sorry in advance the the long reply.

On 10/23/2023 at 8:55 PM, HDiddy said:

If you mean modding being done on Blender versions 2.79, etc...

That's one of the things. The newer Blender versions have many useful plugins (and core features are far better) which we cannot rely on just because we're stuck with older ones for modding. Also tutorials for recent versions are abudant, that is one of the factors that might hold back begginers.

On 10/23/2023 at 8:55 PM, HDiddy said:

If you are specifically referring to Bodies.  Well maybe so, however one of the reasons Body Modding never caught on was incompatibility to clothes.

There are many good bodies already and non-human characters is very niche. I believe those two play a big role in that as well.

On 10/23/2023 at 10:18 PM, Smoke said:

I tend to avoid these questions because I fell that 99% of the time, people take my 'to the point' logic thinking as a insult or they plainly deny my response because they think that I 'don't know' what I'm saying and/or its counter productive.

No offense taken, not even a single one. I was really asking for your opinions and feedback, not to agree with me. I wanted to know what I could focus on in order to help.

On 10/23/2023 at 10:18 PM, Smoke said:

There is NO magic bullet. There are scripts and tools that can help you but at the end...

(omitted for brevity)

Again - magic bullet. There is no magic bullet. The best solution is for people to create their work flow, something that is comfortable towards them. The process is unforgiving if you make a mistake, plain and simple - and I think that is what breaks people to 'move on'. 

I think the biggest hurdle is that people CANNOT use CTK correctly. CTK was the tool that literally made modding easier. Personally, it probably need a better guide. Or the current guide needs to be cleaned up so people can understand it.

That pain you see in beginners is exactly what I am talking about. If the tools are complicated and because of that you can easily break the game, that's something worth of enhancement. There's no "this cannot be improved" thing when we're talking about software development, that's my point in the thread.

Ideally you'd simply import, do your changes and export using a single addon - nothing else. It isn't like that because no one ever dared to try and do it.

On 10/23/2023 at 10:18 PM, Smoke said:

Not sure what you mean. But if you can create a tool that will perfectly apply/create weights on addons. Well - I would call that revolutionary.

You wouldn't even need to worry about vertex weighting or smoothing in latest Blender versions (even 2.8 would do). There's a bunch of plugins that handle that for you:

• Voxel Heat Diffuse Skinning
• Surface Heat Diffuse Skinning
• Corrective Smooth Baker

(and I am may have covered just half -if not less- of them)

On 10/25/2023 at 3:43 AM, hfg2 said:

If you go and publish on github I could submit bugs/patches/improvements. At least in theory.

Your project with the modding tools is highly appreciated by me, is nice to see people that starts implementing Nodes as objects/classes and working on high versions of Blender as well. Also are good for study.

I am currently using a private repositoy on BitBucket, mostly because I've been rebasing the history a lot throughout the massive refactoring I'm performing on the addon. It is completely different already - you won't even recognize the bs* parsing/node walking algorithm in version 2.0.0 (once it goes out) coming from 1.2.0.

But yeah, there's no point in keeping it private for much longer as I am wrapping up the refactoring. If you want I can send you a heads up with the repo when I make it public.

On 10/25/2023 at 3:43 AM, hfg2 said:

You are very dedicated to the stock bodies which I consider inferior bodies, but if your project can export custom bodies (like exporting materials, textures and the rest of nodes like CollaTkane does, not constrained in the old local_XXX numbers) then I will be interested in including this in my bodies exporter.

But I'm kinda done at this point with the game as it is, I personally would like to switch to something else because of the issues I've encountered (limitations in the engine and frequent crashes due to high textures sizes I'm using). I'm not saying that I've abandoned the game for good, but for now I would like to focus on alternatives, because a lot of the tools I've built over time I think can be adapted and reused for other engines with little effort and is a pity not to do so.

It started with original bodies, but just because I wanted to completely change them lol. I need to be able to customize anything from Blender. Subdivide and keep it high poly, customize materials, shader parameters (specular, reflection, etc) and whatnot. Being able to change materials would solve the issue with big textures, since we could break the "skin" into multiple images and assign them to different parts of the body (eg: 4 textures of 1024px, each one for a part of the body - top left, top right, bottom left, bottom right). But that's trivial, the smallest use case that can definitely be automated.

On 10/25/2023 at 9:18 AM, Driver said:

What I like about your addon is, how simple it is. As far as just editing mesh of game items concerns, things are quite easy. Just to import an item/move vertices/export it. Blender is a very much difficult application to use for a beginner, but if you concentrate on only this, you'll need just an hour to learn.

I like to consider things as simple as I can, and the first step should be as simple as it can be. If you want a body shape, import body and reshape it, export and test it. You want something to put on, import a cloth from your game and reshape it, export and you can enjoy it.

This is what our game has long missed.

Thanks for the feedback. I feel exactly the same. When I started it took me so much time to figure out what addons I needed and how to use them that I almost quit (using Blender was actually the easy part). Most addons have too many useless UI stuff when you only need a simple import/export. Also, relying on external tools (blex, t**, ctk, etc) is a complete deal breaker for me. I really like having only those two buttons (import and export) and I am not planning to add any extra ones so soon.

[Driver]

It is a privilege to have a mod tool that is compatible with the latest blender version, a sign that the community is active and vibrant. CTK has been the best, and will be probably, but no need to be everything for modding of this game. I could do weight of complicated mesh in 30mins with 3.6 that took me 3 hours and more with 2.79 (I'm not very experienced with weight paintings tho). Moreover I need to copy the finished weight data and paste it to bs file that is made from dae exported with 2.79. I expect your tool to help users out from this situation.

[xxpy02]

I saw what you're capable of creating even with 2.79b, imagine being able to use 3.6 for everything.

I was really focusing on other things, but if you needed weights exported back you could have just told me; I'll be glad to help you with that.

[Smoke]

14 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

You wouldn't even need to worry about vertex weighting or smoothing in latest Blender versions (even 2.8 would do). There's a bunch of plugins that handle that for you:

• Voxel Heat Diffuse Skinning
• Surface Heat Diffuse Skinning
• Corrective Smooth Baker

(and I am may have covered just half -if not less- of them)

I don't think you understand how weights is applied and/or handled/applied with the different addons, body's, sexes, etc. What you mention is also capable in 2.79. But I assume the tools to weight paint are in a better spot with the current blender.

[HDiddy]

So the ultimate premise here is that because the tool set is still Blender 2.79 that limits modders from modding?

Sorry but I do not agree with that premise.  For starters many of the folks who would ultimately move over are people already modding on other games.  For example, The Sims 4..where Blender 2.79 is required.

No matter how you spin it....the issue is the same, you need to learn and understand Blender...and like it or not, that is the reason why many people do not mod.  They simply do not want to learn a new tool.  Look I have tried a ton of those addons to speed up the process, however what you well find they are all designed based upon your doing the majority of your rigging and rendoring in Blender.  Which is simply not the case for this game.  Maybe it is easier to weight paint in Blender 3.6 maybe not...but in the end it all comes down to the same thing.  Are you capable of using any version of Blender to do your thing.

[HDiddy]

@xxpy02

How about this to help me understand your point.  If I wanted to simply take a Daz dress and make it an addon for the game.  What about Blender 3.6 will make this easier?

Actually I will put this out to anyone.  No one has recently ran down how using specific aspects of Blender 3.6 helps with modding for TK17, it could be speed, workflow, etc. I think this would be a more fruitful discussion if we point out examples.

For starters, Blender versions 2.9+ have better tools for creating more realistic clothing morphs.  If I need to do custom morphs I have many times used Blender 2.9+ to do this.  That said, IMO older version of Blender has a more simple interface allowing to get to what I need to get to faster.  In addition there is not a need to make any modifications to your mesh file created by CTK when using Blender 2.79, and finally the Import tool for TK17 (DP16's version) works nearly flawlessly for importing default game and other assets with morphs.  Nothing like that exist for 2.9+

Soo.....

[xxpy02]

35 minutes ago, HDiddy said:

@xxpy02

How about this to help me understand your point.  If I wanted to simply take a Daz dress and make it an addon for the game.  What about Blender 3.6 will make this easier?

I am probably wrong (I know nothing about Daz), but if you're using Daz for all your creation process then I feel like Blender acts more as a bridge between Daz and CTK than the creation tool itself. In that case, I don't think versions matter much indeed - Blender ends up only being an annoyance.. That being said, I'd look for a way to export a correctly formatted .dae straight from Daz for CTK to use. That way you wouldn't even need to bother using Blender.

But don't listen to me, just stick with what works best for you I guess. It's all a matter of personnal preference. Bottom line is I am working on this addon and wanted feedback on what I could add to it to make modding easier - that's it. What you use is up to you.

[HDiddy]

4 minutes ago, xxpy02 said:

I am probably wrong (I know nothing about Daz), but if you're using Daz for all your creation process then I feel like Blender acts more as a bridge between Daz and CTK than the creation tool itself. In that case, I don't think versions matter much indeed - Blender ends up only being an annoyance.. That being said, I'd look for a way to export a correctly formatted .dae straight from Daz for CTK to use. That way you wouldn't even need to bother using Blender.

But don't listen to me, just stick with what works best for you I guess. It's all a matter of personnal preference. Bottom line is I am working on this addon and wanted feedback on what I could add to it to make modding easier - that's it. What you use is up to you.

 Ok, I'm sorry but your response sounds like you have never created any mods for this game.  If this is a bad assumption please correct me, but my point was trying to figure out what is your process for creating items for the game that in your opinion 3.6 does better.  If your working on an Addon for making modding easier, the first thing I want to know is what is your modding workflow. This way we are all on the same page. 

You cannot go from Daz straight to CTK.  Sure you can export it to a Dae, but it is not a straight export.  While it seems there are some benefits of a better tool set for body creation and modificaiton.  Most modding on this game is porting assets from Daz and other sources.

[Smoke]

3 hours ago, HDiddy said:

So the ultimate premise here is that because the tool set is still Blender 2.79 that limits modders from modding?

Sorry but I do not agree with that premise.  For starters many of the folks who would ultimately move over are people already modding on other games.  For example, The Sims 4..where Blender 2.79 is required.

No matter how you spin it....the issue is the same, you need to learn and understand Blender...and like it or not, that is the reason why many people do not mod.  They simply do not want to learn a new tool.  Look I have tried a ton of those addons to speed up the process, however what you well find they are all designed based upon your doing the majority of your rigging and rendoring in Blender.  Which is simply not the case for this game.  Maybe it is easier to weight paint in Blender 3.6 maybe not...but in the end it all comes down to the same thing.  Are you capable of using any version of Blender to do your thing.

IMO, I think its a 'modern' interface and certain abilities that are put in a more noticeable position compared to 2.79 which some abilities is 'buried'/not in noticeable spots which makes it more desirable but at the end, what people can make in blender 2.8+ is also capable of being made with no differences. In terms of modding, I agree, I don't see why 2.79 is being downplayed. I still think that a lack of 'tutorial' and/or organization is 'lacking'. People just don't want to understand, that regardless of 'which' version they use, blender as a tool is 'BIG' and powerful and its really overwhelming for the newbies to grasp.

[Smoke]

2 hours ago, xxpy02 said:

I am probably wrong (I know nothing about Daz), but if you're using Daz for all your creation process then I feel like Blender acts more as a bridge between Daz and CTK than the creation tool itself. In that case, I don't think versions matter much indeed - Blender ends up only being an annoyance.. That being said, I'd look for a way to export a correctly formatted .dae straight from Daz for CTK to use. That way you wouldn't even need to bother using Blender.

lol no offense (and don't take the 'lol' as offense - I just find it funny that what you said is what we said many times and its been said many times). But Blender IS the bridge. Its been used for the past 10+ years. Its a tool!

Put it this way, IF I ask you to write and hand me a list of the best soccer teams and I expect you to not use a pen and paper, you label me dumb and crazy because a pen and paper works JUST as good.

But Blender has and will always be used as a tool to get an object into this game. Be it that you are getting your 3D objects from Daz, ripped games, self made 3D stuff, 3D sites, etc. That is why when I commented; "....making a script/app of making weight painting easier" is legitimate wishful thinking compared to your comment on making a direct export from daz to CTK which is just 'poor taste' rebuttal.

[Driver]

Blender is a tool, as ctk is, even like tk17 is. As long as it is a tool, people prefer to use what they get used to. It's same for anyone, for me who still stick to 2.69 , for you guys who can take full advantage of 2.79 to make awesome mods, and for those who haven't been familiar with the version before 3.xx.

Besides there have been people who don't know how to setup CTK and that might have prevented them from being active and entering the world of modding. Maybe they just didn't have enough patience. But still, it's a good thing that the first step is simple and easy, and his addon has a possibility to make it happen.

[Smoke]

33 minutes ago, Driver said:

Blender is a tool, as ctk is, even like tk17 is. As long as it is a tool, people prefer to use what they get used to. It's same for anyone, for me who still stick to 2.69 , for you guys who can take full advantage of 2.79 to make awesome mods, and for those who haven't been familiar with the version before 3.xx.

Besides there have been people who don't know how to setup CTK and that might have prevented them from being active and entering the world of modding. Maybe they just didn't have enough patience. But still, it's a good thing that the first step is simple and easy, and his addon has a possibility to make it happen.

lol that is what people don't understand. Blender is a tool and people will need to learn how to use it, regardless of which version it is. There is no easy way to go about it. You said it, I've said it. Don't know how many time it will have to said for people to full grasp the reality. And its not just blender but people will need to know how to use CTK and apply any coding in the bs files. There are multiple tools out there that people can use to 'make' content for this game.

That being said, hfg2 also pointed it out, this game has been out in the wild for many years (the skyrim of porn games) - I get that some people want to see a newer armature, engine, etc. There are few alternative out there, VaM and Honey select. Be it is what it is, I still find this game holding up.

[HDiddy]

Hey the more tools the better, but let's not conflate where the tools are today with the reason people may not mod.  Any tool requires an understanding of how to use it.  Any tool in Blender is useless if you do not know how to use Blender.  Scripts are useless if you do not know how to use them.  Import tools are useless if you have no clue what to do when you import the mesh.

People do not mod because some things are to tedious for them.  Exporting from Daz, Into Blender, then Sculpting, Weights, and finally CTK is one step too many for folks.  I mean there a lazy mugs that even manage to just  modify CTK batch scripts and is literally creating GUI for CTK

I think the point @Smoke and I are trying to make is if you want to mod you need to learn Blender.  Doesn't matter the version, use what you like.  You just need to get proficient with it to Mod.  There is no way a round that.

[vi363R]

Hi guys, just letting you know that I am not using 2.79 anywhere actually in my workflow, only the latest versions of Blender, which is 3.6.4 at the moment and not really having issues anywhere, unless I'm ignorant and nobody informed me about them

the only reason for me to fire up 2.79 is when I need to import something from the game (*.bs) like, having a look at existing addons, just to explore or to modify them.

In my workflow, (which is admittingly, mainly porting from DAZ) I'm using DS, with DAZ to Blender bridge, to get the mesh data out of DS, then in Blender 3.6.4, using the DAZ to blender import addon that comes with it. This addon imports the complete genesis figure, where I keep only the cloth.

Then, in Blender 3.6.4 I do what I do, you know, arranging the scene object tree inside TRS, sculpting, weight paint, shape keys etc. inside of Blender I have a 1 click Python scripts that generates all required morph scripts. then I select the TRS tree and export it as dae, including armature, shape keys, childs etc.

then CTK does it's magic, and I drop the scripts folder (created by python in blender) in the newly created addon folder and it's ready to run.

[hfg2]

I used to be a long time user of Blender 2.79b, because it used to be the version that was most compatible, and easier to use for my specific use cases.

Because of that all my plugins were written for Blender 2.79b, and there is no compatibility with 2.8 or higher.

But Blender 3.6 is vastly superior compared to 2.79b, weight painting is very powerful when looking at those brushes, automatic weight painting is just a few clicks using custom plugins and produce very good results.

 

There are a couple of things were people fall in the trap of choosing sides.

Blender 2.79b is simpler, like in simpler interface. Easier to learn, memorize, perfect if you already know it. Blender 2.79b with its old materials system, NOT node based for use of the internal render looks in theory a better match for the game addons and basic modding of the game.

Blender 2.79b has plugins for it (for TK17 and Sims4). Funny here that if you need the Weather plugin you actually need blender-2.64a. Or if you are a Sims3 harvester you actually need blender-2.62.

Blender 3.6 just owns 2.79b if you need any kind of artistic work, any modern material nodes, weight painting, etc. but its interface is different and old time users face resistance when switching to it. Also the lack of plugins adapted for TK17 makes it worthless if you would have to switch.

So, my point here is if you want to be grumpy as Grump (an old user from modsgarden) then stick to 2.79b and avoid 3.6. If you are a open minded then start using 3.6 for doing all your work, and if you need something from the game then fall back to 2.79b.

I still regret for having my tools compatible with only 2.79b. It was my personal choice back then, I think I was forced somehow to it, but now it starts to bite me back.