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World Building 101


Oz70NYC

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In this topic, we discuss one of the most important aspects of not just comics...but storytelling as a whole...world building. It's every bit, if not MORE important than the actual characters in the story...because what is a character without a world for it to exist in? I use my universe as prime example. If you've followed my blogs, you know there's a lot happening in the universe my characters exist in. You have folks living their day to day lives, all while the world is secretly on the precipice of global war...and now there's a demon witch plotting to plunge the Earth into even further chaos. That's a lot of completely different aspects all happening at once. How's this possible? Because I've crafted each story to be interconnected on some level.

For example, the main character of Stiel Maiden...Lori Stiel, is a good friend of one of the main character of The Love We Live...Bianca Dupree...who is currently dating Henry Reese, the son of retired General Franklin Reese...Henry's father. Are they aware of this connection in their world? Not yet...but they will be. There are many other connections between characters, but I can't go into those without spoiling future entries...so I use the above one because it's currently the most obvious connection. It serves as an example of how interconnected that group of characters are without even being cognizant of it themselves...until the moment arrives that they are made aware of it. That instantly changes the dynamic between that set of characters...and opens up new story beats to follow.

But it's not just world building between characters that's important...it's ACTUAL world building. What does the physical world these characters exist in look like? As I've mentioned numerous times, my universe is only similar to the real thing at base. It's far more complex, as there exists such things as magic, advanced AI and para-causality within my universe. There's an entire storyline in itself as to why humanity has lost it's connection to "Mana", the abundant energy of the Earth itself and the source of magic on the planet. In fact, in my universe ALL planets have some level of Mana. There also exist "fantasy" races in my universe...of all types. Where are they? It's all part of stories yet to be told...but will be told in due time. There also exists life on other planets in my universe. Sentient life not dissimilar to humanity. There's a LOT to my universe that I haven't even scratched the surface of. So the question begs to be asked "how does one create a universe so complex without losing sight of the goal?" The answer is simple: treat the world you're building as a character itself.

As with any character, you don't reveal everything about them in one go. Do the same for the world you're building. Trickle out small details about the world as you would a living character. An example is how I've mentioned the existence of Elven ruins on my Earth. Remnants of the Elven kingdoms that once dotted the planet hundreds of thousands of years ago, and the mysteries that humanity now asks as to "if Elves did exist on Earth, where did they go?" All elements to the world to be revealed as my stories (in this one specifically Bubblee & Victoria) continue on. It sounds complicated, but it's not once you've fleshed out the world. And that leads to the next point I'd like to make.

It's easy to get overwhelmed with ideas of the world you're trying to craft. A long time ago, long before I decided to make these comics...but when I was brainstorming what I call my creative universe...(to borrow from @Trapp, the "Ozverse") I actually sat down in from of my computer and wrote out the details of the universe. Long before that, I'd do so in actual composition books that I still have. I'd write notes and details about the universe and the characters within. This has been over the span of 15 years to varying degrees...so my universe is FIRMLY established in my mind. If you're having trouble trying to decide on direction, concept or execution...take the time to plot out the world 1st. CICLops actually didn't exist until I sat and thought about a proper avenue for Lori's motivations. Initially the plan was she was just going to be a CIA operative, but then I decided I needed an agency with even more autonomy and less oversight than them...and Clandestine Intervention, Combat & Logistics Operations was born. 

In closing, the entire process of world building can be daunting, but it's one of the most important aspects of storytelling. 

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World building is interesting I think most folks ultimately end up building worlds or universes whether they like it or not as it is key to telling any story.  The same goes for videos having an understanding of where the characters are and what is going on in that universe provides context that is not always needed to be spelled out in front of you. It is why when you read a comic or watch a video without a properly defined universe or location something immediately feels missing in the whole story.

For me I have setup my videos or stories in the same universe I like to call the DiddyVerse.  Being able to move characters in and out without always having to explain why is a benefit of doing that.  However, as you get deeper and deeper into whatever universe you have built things do get more complex.

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Indeed they do get more complex. That's when you decide which characters would naturally fit in multiple stories and which will remain secular to the initial story they've appeared in. I'll use Franklin Reese as an example, who appears in 3 of my stories. He's a retired 4 star general in the USMC and one of the central figures responsible for the creation of CICLops, which makes his involvement in SM even if indirectly...pretty obvious. He's also the father of Henry & Hermione Reese, which makes his involvement in TLWL obvious as well. Then of course he has his own offshoot story where he's no romantically involved with a young woman old enough to be his grandchild. Hence, he seamlessly fits in 3 stories. There are a number of characters of mine that will bleed into stories they were originally created for...the most obvious of these characters is Victoria Crowne...who within my universe is actually THE central character. (For reasons that will actually be explained in the next volume of B&V). Then there's other characters who will never appear in any other story aside from the one they debuted in. As a creator, you've gotta assess your roster of characters and decide who among them can fit different roles. Again using Frank, though he's at present only indirectly part of the SM story, he's a central piece in it's lore, whereas in the story he's appeared multiple times in TLWL, he's merely a supporting cast member. It all boils down to knowing how to move the pieces.

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24 minutes ago, Oz70NYC said:

Indeed they do get more complex. That's when you decide which characters would naturally fit in multiple stories and which will remain secular to the initial story they've appeared in. I'll use Franklin Reese as an example, who appears in 3 of my stories. He's a retired 4 star general in the USMC and one of the central figures responsible for the creation of CICLops, which makes his involvement in SM even if indirectly...pretty obvious. He's also the father of Henry & Hermione Reese, which makes his involvement in TLWL obvious as well. Then of course he has his own offshoot story where he's no romantically involved with a young woman old enough to be his grandchild. Hence, he seamlessly fits in 3 stories. There are a number of characters of mine that will bleed into stories they were originally created for...the most obvious of these characters is Victoria Crowne...who within my universe is actually THE central character. (For reasons that will actually be explained in the next volume of B&V). Then there's other characters who will never appear in any other story aside from the one they debuted in. As a creator, you've gotta assess your roster of characters and decide who among them can fit different roles. Again using Frank, though he's at present only indirectly part of the SM story, he's a central piece in it's lore, whereas in the story he's appeared multiple times in TLWL, he's merely a supporting cast member. It all boils down to knowing how to move the pieces.

Honestly this is why I started creating character profiles.  As stories get more complicated and immersive there is only so much context you can provide in the story itself. 

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1 hour ago, HDiddy said:

Honestly this is why I started creating character profiles.  As stories get more complicated and immersive there is only so much context you can provide in the story itself. 

Profiles and bios are the perfect way to flesh characters out, as well as give the reader insight into the character's general design and vision. You can also use it to help YOURSELF establish the very same things for a character when you have a bunch of them. (Like we do...lol).

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Ahh yes, world building. I can finally sit the fuck down and throw in my two cents about this.

For my TrappVerse, I want to keep things as simple as I can. My main focus in comics is in two places: Los Angeles, California and Tokyo, Japan. That's where most of my stories take place out of convenience and availability of assets. Some places will definitely be recycled for certain visuals, but that's pretty much where I develop my characters.

For Gravure Love, I try and keep things as simple as I can. There is not a lot of lore needed for that because of the nature of the story, which at its core, is a Harem story like the ones in Anime. But all my characters have connections with each other. And here's where a Spoiler alert is at hand.

Gravure Love's lead male, Hikaru Ichinose, was born Hikaru Shinoda; a bastard child of my universe's Shinoda clan of Yakuza (a different version of which is developed by @Oz70NYC in his upcoming Magnum Opus series). He was trained since childhood to become a killing machine, but without the privilege of being "part of the family" as his conception and birth destroyed a potential alliance with another powerful Yakuza clan with which my Shinodas are now at war with. At age 15, he failed an assassination attempt against the daughter of a media tycoon... That girl being Marina Nonaka, my female lead for this. He joined the JSDF by impersonating a soldier who went MIA and was discovered and exiled from the country, travelling to Brazil where he joined a private military company called Maverick Security Consulting (yes, Konami should probably sue me...) and met Sabrina Sotelo, surrogate sister to Nina Sotelo. During his last year at Maverick, he returned incognito to Japan to aid an old friend in a villa where people from the Shinoda clan were trying to extort the population for their own ends, saving the life of Negi Haruno, who in turn became inspired to learn martial arts in order to meet her savior and face him in combat some day. They all came together with Emi Akatsuki and Sayaka Sugimoto, the faces of Sigma Idol Agency, led by Cynthia Hamilton and financed by Aoi Sugimoto, who knew about Hikaru's past due to her contacts and paved the way for him to become hired as trainer and chief of security for the agency.

This now connects to all my other stories, most of which are standalone, or "oneshots" as I like to call them borrowing from Japanese manga. Aoi Sugimoto is also a benefactor of Marco Torres, or "Trapp" as he goes by, who owns Black Trapper Media and its adult film production BTM Babes, with talents such as Julie Getgood and Katie McKinnon, a graduate of Berkeley University where Daniela Olivares and friends study. Quoting the show "Dark", everything is connected.

While my version of Earth is much closer to real life (as well as having tons of actual real-life references in my works), there is such a thing as the paranormal and fantasy creatures. Emi Akatsuki herself is a half-succubus with powers befitting her status as a demon, and Tsuyu Shinoda from The Goddess's Journal used to be my universe's version of Hone-Onna (the skullfaced woman), a popular yokai in Japan. Also worth mentioning is that Maverick has access to technology like muscle suits, high tech weapons and many other technological and scientific resources that gives them an edge over most armies in my world; so in essence, enhanced humans exist in the TrappVerse as well.

Like you all mentioned, world building helps establish the setting of your creative universe, and while the possibilities are indeed endless, you need to watch yourself and be mindful of the limitations of the media you're working with. I'm neither an artist nor a character designer, and asset availability or lackthereof for TK17 does shape a lot of how my stories are told. Maverick, for example, has a proper lore and story delving into the past of Hikaru Ichinose, but a lot of those visuals are practically impossible to achieve with what's currently available. Remains to be seen whether that story will ever come out in comic book format or how long it will be, due to the depth of the story I've written so far.

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3 hours ago, Trapp said:

For my TrappVerse, I want to keep things as simple as I can. My main focus in comics is in two places: Los Angeles, California and Tokyo, Japan. That's where most of my stories take place out of convenience and availability of assets. Some places will definitely be recycled for certain visuals, but that's pretty much where I develop my characters.

Due in part to the limitation of assets as far as scenes, recycling locales can't be avoided. Fortunately for me I have literal hundreds of GBs of H5M assets, so in a pinch I can make new scenes. I made several that will appear in SM: Revelations Part 3, as well as the "Luke" arch coming up in TLWL. In fact, as far as the Luke arch, the location is switching up completely, as his exodus from Empire City has lead him across the country to Los Angeles. I've got tons of assets that has allowed me to recreate some spots in LA, or at least facimoles of them. @Sexvision was gracious enough to bless me with a ton of his unfinished work, or at the least assets that fit what I need in terms of scenery for my stories. I rely HEAVILY on Hook 5 for what I do, which is the reason why even if I did have access to the V11 beta, it'd never touch it.

For the most part, my stories focus on Empire City as the setting, though Los Angeles, Tokyo and London will become locations of interest as well. I can also pull off Egypt and the middle east in general. And of course plenty of fantasy locales and even other planets (but that's another story...lol). My universe is a LITERAL universe in every sense of the word, and at some point it will all come together. There will be elves and orcs walking the streets of Empire City, and interplanetary space travel will be possible as readily as a calling an Uber. Comparatively, if there were a universe in media I'd liken mine to most, it would be Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age universes, molded into one as there will be the fantasy and sci-fi elements fused together at some point. The seeds of this will be planted in Bubblee & Victoria down the road, and eventually it'll be commonplace in all of my future work. I've got ideas in store for years to come actually.

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2 minutes ago, Oz70NYC said:

Due in part to the limitation of assets as far as scenes, recycling locales can't be avoided. Fortunately for me I have literal hundreds of GBs of H5M assets, so in a pinch I can make new scenes. I made several that will appear in SM: Revelations Part 3, as well as the "Luke" arch coming up in TLWL. In fact, as far as the Luke arch, the location is switching up completely, as his exodus from Empire City has lead him across the country to Los Angeles. I've got tons of assets that has allowed me to recreate some spots in LA, or at least facimoles of them. @Sexvision was gracious enough to bless me with a ton of his unfinished work, or at the least assets that fit what I need in terms of scenery for my stories. I rely HEAVILY on Hook 5 for what I do, which is the reason why even if I did have access to the V11 beta, it'd never touch it.

For the most part, my stories focus on Empire City as the setting, though Los Angeles, Tokyo and London will become locations of interest as well. I can also pull off Egypt and the middle east in general. And of course plenty of fantasy locales and even other planets (but that's another story...lol). My universe is a LITERAL universe in every sense of the word, and at some point it will all come together. There will be elves and orcs walking the streets of Empire City, and interplanetary space travel will be possible as readily as a calling an Uber. Comparatively, if there were a universe in media I'd liken mine to most, it would be Bioware's Mass Effect and Dragon Age universes, molded into one as there will be the fantasy and sci-fi elements fused together at some point. The seeds of this will be planted in Bubblee & Victoria down the road, and eventually it'll be commonplace in all of my future work. I've got ideas in store for years to come actually.

Oh man, I don't even know how to follow up my individual stories at times LMAO!

I rely heavily on what I already have, which isn't much, but I feel like H5 Rooms and Objects come A LONG WAY on getting that visual flair there. I too would like to do more in terms of fantasy stuff, but the idea I have is a bit of a reverse Isekai, in which a fantasy character comes to our world through a videogame, so that should be interesting!

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Not going to lie... @Sexvision's insane amount of Hook 5 rooms have kept my universe fairly void of duplication. I can't make a VX room that fast, nor do I have the patience to. The last thing you want is for everyone to have the same looking crib.

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8 minutes ago, HDiddy said:

Not going to lie... @Sexvision's insane amount of Hook 5 rooms have kept my universe fairly void of duplication. I can't make a VX room that fast, nor do I have the patience to. The last thing you want is for everyone to have the same looking crib.

Agreed. I've made at 7 least 6 different apartments alone just recycling H5M assets. Hardest part is the kitchen because there's only actually 2 sets of kitchen assets, one of which you're actually responsible for...lol.

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I still have a lot to share with you all. Im filtering out trash at the moment and will upload to Oz soon again.

Also found some rooms that only need positions so there will be some late newyear presents probable.

@Oz70NYC Did i share the Amerikana 3d kitbash already? I also have some tokyo stuff for @Trapp i will share.

i ported out about 50 daz beds. these are untouched so a bit high on verts. So they probable need some decimate modifier. (and some uv work if you want to use PT.)

p.s. kitchens are just cubes in blender. nothing special to make 🙂 I have ported out some stoves also. Will be in a pack to Oz.

Dont worry still have a lot you can upload soon.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Sexvision said:

I still have a lot to share with you all. Im filtering out trash at the moment and will upload to Oz soon again.

Also found some rooms that only need positions so there will be some late newyear presents probable.

@Oz70NYC Did i share the Amerikana 3d kitbash already? I also have some tokyo stuff for @Trapp i will share.

i ported out about 50 daz beds. these are untouched so a bit high on verts. So they probable need some decimate modifier. (and some uv work if you want to use PT.)

p.s. kitchens are just cubes in blender. nothing special to make 🙂 I have ported out some stoves also. Will be in a pack to Oz.

Dont worry still have a lot you can upload soon.

 

 

No, I don't think I have that one. Amerikana 3D Kitbash? No...don't have that one.

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Yeah just find out why. All textures still need to be set. There are no materials for these so they will take some time.

1.png

2.png

Will these help out? If so let me know and i will finish them for you.

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2 minutes ago, Sexvision said:

Yeah just find out why. All textures still need to be set. There are no materials for these so they will take some time.

1.png

2.png

Will these help out? If so let me know and i will finish them for you.

Jesus Christ, these look AMAZING!! So much variety too!

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9 minutes ago, Trapp said:

Jesus Christ, these look AMAZING!! So much variety too!

Oz has a bunch of these already. @Oz70NYC Can you share the kitbash things with Trapp please.

@Trapp here is your Japan street.

Still needs specs and normals.

https://mega.nz/file/IvQnRLTb#ubbToYBWvCy5-vopqAoQxUjh3w9CyQwPuuYspjWSN80

and tokyo street at night

https://mega.nz/file/BmAV3TaA#xcICJas5ybVdaSuJa9G-7O1x_wFMVPFPDRkKpqedk0k

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3 hours ago, Sexvision said:

Oz has a bunch of these already. @Oz70NYC Can you share the kitbash things with Trapp please.

@Trapp here is your Japan street.

Still needs specs and normals.

https://mega.nz/file/IvQnRLTb#ubbToYBWvCy5-vopqAoQxUjh3w9CyQwPuuYspjWSN80

This is the first time I'm ever using H5 Objects like this. Any tips before I start?

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@Sexvision Yes, they will DEFINITELY help with exterior scenes. I could create all kinds of different city and township layouts with those.

@Trapp 1st tip for you would be to restart your PC and have minimal to ZERO programs running before you start setting up your scenes, since your rig is on the old size. H5M resources such up a LOT of memory, and too many will cause your frames to drop big time. The Empire City Streets scene I've created and used several times drops 15-20 frames when I have 4 models loaded up. But it's also MASSIVE, so factor that in as well. Smaller scenes should give you no issues, like interiors and stuff. The 2 Japan scenes Sexvision shared with you aren't that large. One is actually very small, the other is about the size of an average room, so they shouldn't give you issues. But if you ever plan on doing stuff on as big a scale as I am (I'm actually in the process of putting a warzone together) heed what I said at the start. Also...SAVE OFTEN! I cannot begin to tell you how many times I'd be working on a scene and the frames hang or the game freezes and crashes and I'd forgotten to save. For me, every 5 items I add to a scene, I save.

Aside from that, everything you could possible want to learn about using H5 you can read up on below:

https://www.klubexile.com/tutorials/category/1-hook-help/

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OMG! This tread is gold!

I had been building a world for more than a couple of years now, and I must say I haven't tried  to do something more ambitious like @Trapp, because of limitations of sceneries. I come to here to do/get inspiration for the kinkiest parts of the stories, and that leaves much of the action out. The specialization of my scenery is somewhat unique (c'mon, a military academy... In RUSSIA), and much of what I've done... now that I think of it, has came from TK17:  The abandoned bunker, berger's shower room, Driver's scenes room (the one with the pool, there are stairs and a shower, have you noticed them?), @Sexvision's covid care, the sinuos room and now I'm making one for the romantic apartment. 

But I need other locations and I believe I'm gonna learn how to make them, because I doubt someone would make a Russian Army barracks, for instance.

 

Now, about the world building. My stories are always based in our world. I don't know why, because I love super heroes' stories and mangas like Kill la Kill and 7 deadly sins to name a couple, but can't work with fantasy. It's easier to me make crazy stories in a "real world" like the Kakegurui anime (the premise to me is dumb, but I love the characters and their stories) than create a "Lord of the Rings" like world from scratch. The only fantasy lore I find extremely appealing, is Castlevania's, and maybe some day I'll explore that.

Most of my characters are women, and most of them have now a background and a somewhat complicated life story. Interestingly enough, most of my male characters are more like decoration. 

And I use our world, because I know A LOT of history. It was my favorite class since I was a little boy, and grand strategy games from Paradox Interactive made me basically a nerd at geography (from the countries of my interest, I must say). So I can place a story in ancient Greece or Rome, the Bizantine Empire, the Holy Roman Empire and of course Imperial and Soviet Russia. I find a little troublesome use my own nation, because our history hurts me, a little; but I need to use it for the sake of my universe.

I like to think in alternative history, and what ifs... that's a different kind of "realist fantasy". So, maybe I cheat a little, again, using our world as a starting point. 

 

 

I love character profiling, that's why I enjoy stories by Trapp and @Morius. I must get into @Oz70NYC stories, because I enjoy them and every time I read a new story from a new author, I learn things.

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21 minutes ago, SovietTiger said:

OMG! This tread is gold!

I had been building a world for more than a couple of years now, and I must say I haven't tried  to do something more ambitious like @Trapp, because of limitations of sceneries. I come to here to do/get inspiration for the kinkiest parts of the stories, and that leaves much of the action out. The specialization of my scenery is somewhat unique (c'mon, a military academy... In RUSSIA), and much of what I've done... now that I think of it, has came from TK17:  The abandoned bunker, berger's shower room, Driver's scenes room (the one with the pool, there are stairs and a shower, have you noticed them?), @Sexvision's covid care, the sinuos room and now I'm making one for the romantic apartment. 

But I need other locations and I believe I'm gonna learn how to make them, because I doubt someone would make a Russian Army barracks, for instance.

 

Now, about the world building. My stories are always based in our world. I don't know why, because I love super heroes' stories and mangas like Kill la Kill and 7 deadly sins to name a couple, but can't work with fantasy. It's easier to me make crazy stories in a "real world" like the Kakegurui anime (the premise to me is dumb, but I love the characters and their stories) than create a "Lord of the Rings" like world from scratch. The only fantasy lore I find extremely appealing, is Castlevania's, and maybe some day I'll explore that.

Most of my characters are women, and most of them have now a background and a somewhat complicated life story. Interestingly enough, most of my male characters are more like decoration. 

And I use our world, because I know A LOT of history. It was my favorite class since I was a little boy, and grand strategy games from Paradox Interactive made me basically a nerd at geography (from the countries of my interest, I must say). So I can place a story in ancient Greece or Rome, the Bizantine Empire, the Holy Roman Empire and of course Imperial and Soviet Russia. I find a little troublesome use my own nation, because our history hurts me, a little; but I need to use it for the sake of my universe.

I like to think in alternative history, and what ifs... that's a different kind of "realist fantasy". So, maybe I cheat a little, again, using our world as a starting point. 

 

 

I love character profiling, that's why I enjoy stories by Trapp and @Morius. I must get into @Oz70NYC stories, because I enjoy them and every time I read a new story from a new author, I learn things.

Yes, exactly! The cool thing about the scenarios we have, is that we can focus the action on small places and that in turn helps on character development and interactions.

For me, character profiles are VITAL to keep track of my people's history, actions and relationships, as well as to help me build a foundation to write stories with them, so that everybody feels unique and has their own nuances. And another one of the things that really peak my interest is videogame lore. I'm not an avid gamer, in fact I suck at them. I haven't owned a console for ages and my PS2 I bought last year hasn't gotten any use since I moved back in August. But videogame lore is super interesting to me. So in a sense, I share @SovietTiger's love of history, albeit directed more towards the fictional world. But of course, I wouldn't mind learning more about real life history, if only to make my world building improve slightly.

Anime also serves as a great source of inspiration. Funny enough, Kill La Kill and its analysis on fashion, fascism and the struggle for self-acceptance is a fantastic analysis worthy of exploring. A Youtuber named Michael Saba does fantastic essays analyzing fictional works such as Kill La Kill, NieR: Automata and MGSV with such attention to detail and bringing in parallelisms from real life to those fictional worlds. In the case of MGSV, the topic of proxy wars, the interest of former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe (RIP) to revoke Article 9 of the Constitution, and how heavily militarized American society has become to the point that armed officers have used violence to quell riots or civil movements. That doesn't just happen in left-leaning countries, people... But I went a bit off-topic there.

The point here is, world building can be a daunting task. But I've been exposed to a large amount of media in several different formats to have an idea of what works, what doesn't, and how I want to shape my characters as I analyze the work of other creators. And being that this is at its core, a sex game, I don't want to reduce my females to tools for masturbation or fantasizing. I believe most of them have their own agency, their own personality, and at this point, the sky is the limit. I'm preparing things that you might not expect, but that I am sure you will all enjoy.

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While my creative universe has been something that's existed for the better part of 25 years...since back when I was kid who aspired to become a comic book artist and WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before I joined the military, the current iteration of it has several influences. If I had to sum them up by each series, it'd go as follows;

The Love We Live: Slice of Life style anime/Soap Operas/Rom-Coms/Romantic Dramas

Stiel Maiden: The "Clancyverse" (The collective works of famous military author Tom Clancy, who created the characters and stories behind Splinter Cell, Rainbow 6, Ghost Recon, Jack Ryan, Without Remorse and most recently The Division.

Bubblee & Victoria: Basic "Buddy" comedies, Sci-Fantasy (D&D, Elder Scrolls, etc)

Magnum Opus: Garouden, Baki The Grappler, Kengan Ashura/Omega, Midnight Fight Express

Warriors Of Fate: Essentially it's kind of an extension of Bubblee & Victoria, in that it's sci-fantasy, but takes place on my Earth nearly 100,000 years ago, just before the actions of Vozanath that destroyed the veil, and severed humanity's connection to Mana (magic).

So yea...as you can see there's a LOT going on as far as my influences...lol.

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I think we should definitely make a thread regarding creator influences here some time soon! It is definitely an interesting point of discussion!

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